why gold?
Hello everyone, 1st post….
Not even sure why I bothered to sign up here, except maybe to stir up trouble.
I used to be a gold bug. I used to be convinced the end of the world was nigh.
In early 2005 I invested everything (a relatively paltry amount I’m sure, compared to a lot of people here) in gold coins and gold miners. Gold was around $400 oz. I rode that bull to the 1900 top and beyond, finally cashed out well past the big gold chart breakdown below 1550.
Remember that day in April? I do. I remember the gap down open in GLD. I remember waiting for the backtest gap fill that never came. I remember that 48 hours later, gold had dropped $200.
Still, all in all, I did okay — eventually cashed out at pretty much today’s prices, which tripled my investment in less than 10 years. Rolled that into real estate in hot US markets, and tripled that investment again.
But at the end of the day, I would’ve been much, much, MUCH better off buying Apple stock in 2005 for $5 a share. Closing price today: $176 and change.
Gold and real estate: 9x. Apple: 34x.
Meanwhile, these days, I look at a monthly gold chart, and my thought is… so what?
Yes, a potentially massive cup and handle is developing. However, it could still take years of chop and grind to develop and actually break out to new highs. There seems to be a lot of excited anticipation about a break out of the triangle, a break above 1350. As if that means anything.
To me, it’s just…. so what.
I will bet anyone here a case of bananas that there’s a concrete ceiling of resistance at gold 1550. Price is going to chop and grind and backfill between 1550 and 1350 for months — or years — before eventually (maybe) advancing into the next congestion zone between 1550 and 1800. And then how long till all that overhead resistance is worked through? Until gold finally — finally! — breaks out into new highs and blue sky?
And the gold miners…? Nothing at all to be excited about, imo. Give me a solid break out above that down trend line, and my senses will perk up. Until then…. dead money.
Meanwhile, here’s the monthly QQQ — the leader of the current bull market in US stocks. Pretty sweet looking uptrend channel, if you ask me. Parabolic blow-off top? Not seeing it.
What I do see is that in 2015-16, price worked its way through the overhead resistance of the all time highs of the year 2000 top. And it’s really too soon to say for sure, but perhaps that resistance zone is simply the halfway point in time and price of the uptrend that began in 2009.
Value versus momentum — two very different, and valid, investment strategies.
But for those who are sitting in gold as it grinds and chops around, while hoping and praying for the unraveling of civilization that sends the price of gold to the moon….
I just don’t see how that makes any sense.
Amen…
I invest in gold for the reason you cited: the unraveling of the system. If I’m wrong and the system never unravels, great, I can retire with a pension, 401k (which I can’t invest in gold anyway), and social security. But if Santa Claus really doesn’t exist and money doesn’t really grow on trees after all, I have my gold investments.
Amen
Gold coins as an insurance. Miners as speculation play.
How many etfs out there? hundreds upon hundreds if not more and they all hold a handful of stocks which banks push, general public and fund managers trade with. What happens when the switch gets thrown and the stampede to sell to get out? Even Switzerland gov’t buys the FANG stocks. Just seems to me that way way too many people owning the same list and may end up like the vix. We are at the other end of the spectrum in forgotten land. Shalloom.
What if the switch gets thrown 400% higher than current levels?
Or… what if the switch is just an idea in your mind? What if you’re just making it up?
Nature is cyclical and there is no way around it.
you obviousy remember the gold drop and chaos from the past, that was with a small ,very small percentage of players involved compared to the DJI. Good luck getting out .What if this is our dream world and our dream are the reality?
Well How do you do Vajra.
About time you told us what you think.
A Fine first post . Congrats on your timing in Gold 400 to 1200 is good ( 1900 was but a dream)
Agree most missed the Apple Train.
Juniors ….that’s where the next Apple will be.
I don’t know when though
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Thanks for your post telling us what we should have done. Tell us what to do on Monday.
LOL…you da man Music Man
Thanks Fully. I believe it’s all about what is the definition of money. I believe gold is money. If you sell your Apple stock you get a piece of paper with which you can go into a bank and exchange for another piece of paper that basically is identical to the one you exchanged. Both state that the bank (Fed) owes you what they just gave you, a debt. That is basically nonsense. It is a shell game.
You can do whatever you want. I’m 100% long QQQ, riding out the current turbulence. If that uptrend channel breaks down, I will reassess my position.
Well you did suggest it… your purpose is to stir up trouble. I am going to put out this post and won’t be hanging out to respond to further posts as I will be busy over the weekend. But this was the most pathetic post I have read in a long time. Pathetic slobber thinly masquerading as some sort of knowledge. The preamble was an effort to gain some sort of connection or bond with the membership and then spew out the most worthless commentary of no value to anyone. Should have bought apple…awe shucks and I should have bought the right lottery ticket or even bitcoin in 2009. Totally pointless comment. Then the ignorant ramble about gold displaying CNBC level of knowledge of what gold is for. An informed buyer does not “invest” in gold or even speculate in it. He buys it as insurance to protect his purchasing power over the long haul from the dilutive actions of governments and then leaves it to his family as a form of estate planning. Family fortune building call it. He doesn’t concern himself with the peaks or troughs.
What he does invest in however is gold and silver stocks with a certain designated percent of his portfolio. And through years of deep study he knows that the time to do this is prior to credit contractions because he has learned that gold acts as a counter balance to the financial system and thats when they will flourish. He learns to understand market cycles and uses a combination of TA, fundamentals and market psychology to recognize his buy spot. He knows the big money is made in playing the large swing of the cycle, not the short trade.
The amateur however, looks at a chart with a 4-5 year saucer shaped basing pattern and says “so what” – ” I am bored”… I want excitement!, give me the VIX. Or he talks about the envy trade Apple with an 894 million dollar market cap. What are the odds of that doubling going forward?
Concrete ceilings in gold at 1550. It’s clear to me that this gentleman has never really witnessed an organic secular bull market. A bull market will rip through that “ceiling” like it was never even there. That is what bull markets do. Just like bear markets melt through “known” “concrete” support levels to the chagrin of shocked holders.
Oh buy the way I like boring markets, as long as they have value. It allows me the chance of establishing my position without competition Take Sprott Inc which I painstakingly acquired 100,000 shares late last year under $2.00/share. That was boring, but guess what, stocks properly purchased on the bargain table that have value quite often start becoming less than boring. Then even further down the road become downright exciting. Maybe at that time I can sell my shares to you since you want action.
https://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=SII.TO&p=M&yr=10&mn=0&dy=0&id=p58163795772&a=557451571&listNum=224
Actually if I had to guess regarding your quite certain views on the direction and timetable of gold you are suffering from an acute case of spurned remorse. Having given back a large chunk of your position, (while still reminding us that you were profitable of course) you missed out on that big fish…Apple. So gold must suffer to validate the preconceived views of gold which you possess. And no better place to validate them than on a “gold bug” site.
Yes indeed the more certain the opinion the bigger the crank.
As far as that QQQ chart. I guess we gold bugs should have been in that one too.. like apple. Thanks for reminding me of that it really helps me going forward. Remember that people buy what they wish they should have bought. So I guess I will go right out there and buy some of the Q’s. Oh but wait… look at that volume that is posted. It has been steadily declining for 8 years now. I though in an organically generated bull market volume is supposed to rise with trend. Gee maybe there is some significance to this??? Nah, it’ll always go up. CNBC sez so.
Thanks for offering us your in depth understanding of the gold market
Cheers and have a nice weekend.
1550 gold. Maybe you’re right, maybe I am. We’ll see when it gets there.
QQQ. You’ve been calling the top repeatedly. One day you’ll be right.
I thought we had a top set-up last summer and I posted on it. Didn’t happen. Any other mention is incorrect. Repeatedly ??? Sorry.
Fair enough, perhaps my memory is over-projecting.
Thanks for posting, vajra. We’re getting good, heated exchanges here. It’s good to read all these posts. The subject of what gold represents is a good one to. Discuss.
You of course would have held Apple from $5 to $176, right? Come back in a decade and tell me what I should have done.
The basic point: US stocks have significantly outperformed gold and gold miners, from 2005 to present.
And there’s a difference between having a small portion of one’s investments in gold, as insurance, versus betting the farm and hoping for the big “reset.”
Which camp are you in?
From the 2005 low (1136.15) to its high in 2011 (1370.58) the S & P 500 (SPX) returned 20.64%.
I went all-in – with every dime I had – in gold at its 2005 low ($411.50), held on all through 2008 and sold it all at the September 2011 high ($1923.70) and made 367.4% on my gold holdings. I’m an absolute genius who has conquered my emotions to an extent Jesse Livermore could only dream of. I’m not only brilliant, but a Vulcan’s Vulcan that Spock could only hope to be.
So there.
http://zapcrap.com/ (Scroll down.)
Nailed it. Thanks Plunger.
Plunger, having taking the time to reread your post and let the implications sit with me….
You have a huge amount of projection going on. Might want to take a hard look at that sometime.
I really don’t know what gold means anymore. I used to think I did. But now there’s more question marks than anything.
You, on the other hand, seem to think you’ve got it all figured out. Dangerous place to be, IMO.
My take on the above comment of not knowing what gold means any more: The FED and central banks have been successful in distorting market forces by putting their thumb on the scales of interest rates so that it has accomplished their goal of discouraging you and made you doubt the purpose and role of gold in the financial system. But if you go back beyond this era of CB bubble blowing (30 years) one can understand the role. Read the works of Dan Oliver if you want an understanding. Less than this knowledge yes one may lose their compass.
Vajra
Too name oneself after an Eastern phallic symbol encompassing the 5 poisons and corresponding 5 wisdoms. Two sides to every Gold coin am I right?
Now we move onto personal attacks… Check.
Thanks to you,too, Plunger.
Congratulations Vajra, good post, and congratulations on your understanding of the credit cycle of which QQQ is an excellent investment vehicle.
The gains since the GFC have been exceptional, particularly since the “consolidation phase” ended in early 2016.
The current down-turn is nothing more than a weekly cycle low that occurs around every 26 weeks and soon it will commence it’s rapid upward advance.
Do not forget we will have a mid cycle slow-down in late 2019 but should see exponential gains until then and certainly thereon after until 2026 (the cycle last around 18-22 years).
Investment and/or speculation in the PM’s and Miners has always been fun, while following the long term commodity cycles just as equally interesting as the credit cycle, but to wholly invest in one or the other without an intimate understanding of the cycles of either, is fraught with danger.
So to that extent your investment and/or trading strategy so far has been spot on and you are to be congratulated on having such an understanding of these cycles.
I am heavily invested in both areas, the credit cycle and the commodity cycle, (the commodity cycle having served my country, Australia, exceptionally well) and there are some arguments for both areas of investment as long as the timing is correct.
At the end of the day we are here to learn ways to make money by investing in Mr Market so your contribution is welcome, so do not be deterred by negative comments, come back again.
I should add that the “credit cycle” is also referred to as the “real estate and banking cycle” so churning your gold profits into both real estate and stocks was at that time was a really smart move!
Metals and Miners right now= a damn lap dance with tight jeans on
Welcome Vajra!
Plunger that was a really outstanding post. It really sets the bar of what a speculator is and does.
Wow…I love it
We needed a kick in the ass here
Plunger …fantastic reply !
Worthy debate and exchange.
PMs are a good sector for trading and insurance.
Investments, not so much.
And yes, the world is likely facing some binary decisions not far down the road.
“The basic point: US stocks have significantly outperformed gold and gold miners, from 2005 to present.” -Vajra
Yeah because everyone here started investing at your magical 2005 starting point and are all cashing out today.
Total ridiculous statement. But of course you are entitled to your opinion.
Strawman argumnet (def): A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.
Correct… Proper analysis
Furthermore to compare the capital gain of QQQ or Apple vs gold doesn’t prove anything. They are totally different asset classes. Just shows that if one was buying gold in an attempt to out pace the top performers in an economic expansion then one has no idea the function that gold serves.
Exactly.
Gold is NOT an investment: it’s a currency. It is the ultimate currency in a fiat world where the greatest counterfeiters of all time are the governments that issue currency.
The Dollar might be the best looking horse in the glue factory, but every one of these horses are slowly being devalued against gold: the only “relic” that the cental bankers still hold.