Goldtent TA Paradise

Vaccine Nation

1. Spock says:

   May 30, 2020 - 9:19 am at 9:19 am

   Exactly. If others are “immunized” there is NO risk to them from me not being “immunized”.

   If I choose to take the risk to get sick, its my choice. And all the others who choose to take the risk, its their choice.

   Since when did government get to decide to take away that choice? Unless they think they own us, like slaves.

2. Spock says:

   May 30, 2020 - 9:20 am at 9:20 am

   “All the slaves must be immunized, as we want a healthy slave population, who dutifully serve their masters”

3. Karl says:

   May 30, 2020 - 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm

   Let me try to “immunize” you with the general sort of counter-argument. Do not assume it is or is not necessarily my own personal position. Please don’t argue against me, but rather with the sorts of argument I present.

   Consider the “leper colony”. People with leprosy (now preferably called Hansen’s Disease) were isolated so that other people would be less likely to come down with their affliction. Isolating them was well established in law and culture. Similarly people with severe tuberculosis were legally confined to sanatoriums so they could not infect other people. The concept of depriving people of their freedom in order to protect others was and thus is well established in culture and law. While placing the unvaccinated in sanitoriums or special colonies may not be on the agenda, the general concept of depriving people of freedom for the good of public health is so well established in fairly recent culture that keeping people from doing XYZ in the setting of a well-established health panic is probably not going to be a stretch.

   You can look up the case of “Typhoid Mary”, an asymptomatic carrier of typhoid fever, who infected and sickened many people with typhoid fever, a disease that can be fatal. I have already seen her case being cited in association with COVID-19. It will be cited repeatedly, I expect. Examples using COVID-19 itself will be employed probably where some asymptomatic unvaccinated child kills his beloved grandmother by infecting her, perhaps, or his brother who had almost recovered from leukemia, or his teacher with a heart condition.

   Not too many decades ago I remember having to carry a card for international travel showing my vaccination record. I believe that even today one sometimes needs to demonstrate certain medical requirements to pass certain borders. For certain jobs in the US one needs to have influenza immunization, even (if working with certain lab animals, for example) rabies shots. Schools and universities already often require immunizations. There’s plenty of precedent.

   Compulsion and restrictions are there in culture and law having to do with prevention. Generally the argument is an appeal the good of the public. Before attacking the argument it is best to anticipate it in its strongest and most perfect form. Try arguing the other side first for preparation. Argue for the vaccine mentally before arguing against it.

   (BTW though no microbiologist I personally think there are biological and medical reasons to be leery of a COVID-19 vaccine right now, certainly not until it’s been tested extensively. I’m happy to let a few hundred million other people try it before me, I think, and I’m not sure how urgently each and every one of them should rush to try it though I don’t know these things and am not a reliable source.)

   • Mike P. says:

     May 31, 2020 - 1:15 am at 1:15 am

     Hi Karl,

     I will attempt to argue your logic. The main issue I have with the situation you proposed is that the argument is not ‘apples to apples’ and therefore the comparison and argument is invalid. Now that I’ve laid out my conclusion I will attempt to explain. You proposed the historical precedent of placing THE SICK into confined areas. We can agree that is historical record. You inferred placing the unvaccinated into sanatoriums or special colonies is not a stretch to one day be on the agenda and that it might be valid due to historical precedent. This is the wrong logic; the unvaccinated are not sick. It is a fallacy to assume that because somebody doesn’t have the vaccine shot that they are also sick or infectious. Getting a shot is one thing. Being sick is another. We cannot mix the two. Therein lies the error. Since it was the SICK placed into confined colonies, then to place the unvaccinated would break with historical precedent as they are not sick, simply unvaccinated. I would view any government which did this as a form of tyranny. This is my main issue with your logic, however there’s another issue.

     The second issue is Leprosy, TB, Typhoid are all BACTERIAL infections, not viral. Vaccines are usually for viral infections, not bacterial (however there is a typhoid and TB vaccine). Concerning all of the above bacterial conditions you proposed, we have anti-biotics for them. I’d challenge your (proposed) logic to lock people up (or separate them) for a VIRUS [or bacteria] is extreme over-reach and it breaks with historical precedent which locked people up over bacterial infections, not viruses. I don’t put this action past any power-hungry government, but it is wrong. The human body has a 99+% chance of kicking most virus and if a bacterial pneumonia sets in we have anti-biotics for that (and O2 therapy and IV vitamin C and more). So I’m counter-proposing that the historical precedent of separation is useless in the light of modern medicine which can treat both viruses and bacterial infections. Rather it would be better for the weak and elderly to separate themselves until the outbreak has ended (which is what we should have done, not send covid-19 patients to nursing homes, Cuomo!).

     A final note. The 201X outbreak of measles at Disney World was forensically discovered to be started by a child who had been recently vaccinated and was sloughing off viral load. Interestingly one of the children who came down with measles had been vaccinated 3 times against measles, a couple of kids 2 shots, and a bunch of kids 1 shot of measles vaccine. A few kids that got infected were unvaccinated and made up a minority of the infected. However, when the story broke guess what the headlines read?

     Mike

     • Karl says:

       May 31, 2020 - 5:50 am at 5:50 am

       I was not offering up “my” logic. I was offering up a way of thinking in order to help allow for the studying of it. It is a way of thinking that many people will use. It will be useful to understand it. It is often best to understand a sort of position in its best form before going against it even when one is certain the position needs to be opposed.

       Also, it is not only not “my” logic. It is also not “logic”, at least not “logical”. It is analogical reasoning, which is always — ***always*** fallacious — pretty much by definition. One makes analogies by pretending that two different things are in some sense identical, blurring over their differences. Analogic reasoning nevertheless can be persuasive and often in fact instructive and educational, thus not necessarily a bad thing.

       Again, one can be argumentative about this or that detail now. Or one can consider how the discussion and program is likely to play out later by trying to elaborate the best case for forced vaccinations, which would include that they will help prevent grievous harm to many wonderful and valuable people other than one’s self. Anticipate the best arguments. I don’t think I gave them and it is a waste of time to counter mine. I just hinted at a certain way of thinking which one should work out on one’s own because one is going to come across it later tougher and better.

       Enough from me.

       To change the subject, does anyone think tear gas in the air increases R0 of ?SARS-CoV-2, decreases it, or what? Perhaps a prospective blinded study is difficult to conduct.